Divisions - Discussion/Questions....
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I don't, that's not what I said, I was talking about low division managers opponents (not players). Sorry if the formulation wasn't clear
How do we explain that high division managers winning everything against inactive low ranked managers receive more medals than a high division manager winning 9 or even 6 times/10 against active managers ?
@restimat said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
How do we explain that high division managers winning everything against inactive low ranked managers receive more medals than a high division manager winning 9 or even 6 times/10 against active managers ?
Again this is not true. Inactive managers are seen as CPU.
But I believe I understand where you're coming from:
Your idea should be something like: If I win over a manager on same division or higher, I should get more medals than beating a manager on a lower division (reverse situation when losing, you should lose more medals when you lose against a lower division manager than against a manager on same/higher level)Is this what you're saying?
NOTE: I'm not aware of all variables on calculation system, but the above is something that's being discussed and that may suffer some changes.
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." --Winston Churchill
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@restimat said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
How do we explain that high division managers winning everything against inactive low ranked managers receive more medals than a high division manager winning 9 or even 6 times/10 against active managers ?
Again this is not true. Inactive managers are seen as CPU.
But I believe I understand where you're coming from:
Your idea should be something like: If I win over a manager on same division or higher, I should get more medals than beating a manager on a lower division (reverse situation when losing, you should lose more medals when you lose against a lower division manager than against a manager on same/higher level)Is this what you're saying?
NOTE: I'm not aware of all variables on calculation system, but the above is something that's being discussed and that may suffer some changes.
@specialone
Good afternoon. Yes, it is true that inactive managers are seen as CPU, but I will give the example of one of several managers at the top of the global ranking of medals who only play against managers who go through the CPU ...
Although there are many inactive, it seems that on the day that you will play against a manager, the account is activated which means that you always win some medals and thus do not play against an inactive manager ...
This is just one of several managers at the top of the global medal ranking.
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@restimat said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
How do we explain that high division managers winning everything against inactive low ranked managers receive more medals than a high division manager winning 9 or even 6 times/10 against active managers ?
Again this is not true. Inactive managers are seen as CPU.
But I believe I understand where you're coming from:
Your idea should be something like: If I win over a manager on same division or higher, I should get more medals than beating a manager on a lower division (reverse situation when losing, you should lose more medals when you lose against a lower division manager than against a manager on same/higher level)Is this what you're saying?
NOTE: I'm not aware of all variables on calculation system, but the above is something that's being discussed and that may suffer some changes.
@specialone I know they are seen as CPU. The problem lies in the fact that the difference between CPU's/low ranked managers with active managers/high ranked managers is too thin. So the question remains: how comes playing like that gives more medals and allows to be top 1, top 10, top 100 or even top 10 000 ?
Before I said that, I actually looked at dozens of top ranked profiles and saw that they were playing against inactive low ranked managers.
I try not to say things I can't back up.On my way, I also found some very rare profils who play the game rightly, against active managers, huge respect to them. They are also in the top, but still behind or equal to managers who play against inactive low ranked managers, unfortunately, which is incomprehensible.
Some of my examples have been locked, they weren't locked a few hours ago, but still let's just take one of them, a random top ranked manager.
I don't accuse anyone of cheating, just showing facts in order to understand the medals calculation system.- Borensberg000 is a manager who loves osm so much that he does his best to have a good ranking, he's now #19 in the world.
- Borensbers000 plays, among others, a league in Argentina with Patronato. He's very strong and won all his matches:
- Borensberg000 is so strong he doesn't need to build decent teams
- It seems that Borensberg000 is so fearful that his low ranked opponents don't even want to log in.
In brief, Borensberg000 (and the HUGE majority of the dozens of top ranked I looked after) plays leagues where 2 opponents logged in today, 4 opponents logged in yesterday, and 9 teams don't have any manager out of 24 managers in total, in that case.
I don't have any problem with that.
I have a problem with the fact that it's possible for high division managers who play against inactive low ranked managers/CPU's to earn more medals, or the same amount, than managers playing against real active opponents, especially against high division managers. Even by winning everything, it shouldn't be possible.Let's take a second example, just in case.
- valéryck is a very smart manager: you give him an easy way to smash the ranking ? He takes it of course. valéryck is now 2nd in the French ranking, let us admire his skills.
Same goes for the French #1, leagues of 20 clubs with 3 managers and 17 bots. They can't be locked of course, they're no cheaters, just guys that understood that winning 100% against bots is better or almost equal than trying to win against real managers.
I have no problem with that way of playing.
I have a problem with the fact it's possible to be so high ranked while playing against bots/inactive players...how is it possible ?-________________________________________________________________-
@specialone said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:But I believe I understand where you're coming from:
Your idea should be something like: If I win over a manager on same division or higher, I should get more medals than beating a manager on a lower division (reverse situation when losing, you should lose more medals when you lose against a lower division manager than against a manager on same/higher level)
Is this what you're saying?
Exactly, my idea is firstly to acknowledge the fact the calculation seems unbalanced and then to understand how we can make it better !
I made 4 suggestions a few posts above, among the one you said indeed.@restimat said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
- Is it possible to count only medals when leagues are open and not private ?
(that would create a legit and fair ranking and also discourage cheating) - Is it possible to give less medals for the result (win/loss) and more medals according to the division of the opponent ?
- Is it possible to give more medals against a high division opponent and less medals against a low division opponent ?
- Is it possible to count medals only on a predetermined account for everyone ? Not like manager points, because I understand the technical heavier aspect of that, but something new where only 1 entry for the ranking system would count. Like a golden slot or something like that. No more confusion either for new players.
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@specialone
Good afternoon. Yes, it is true that inactive managers are seen as CPU, but I will give the example of one of several managers at the top of the global ranking of medals who only play against managers who go through the CPU ...
Although there are many inactive, it seems that on the day that you will play against a manager, the account is activated which means that you always win some medals and thus do not play against an inactive manager ...
This is just one of several managers at the top of the global medal ranking.
@especial-fcp Looks like I'm wasting my time here... you guys just don't read....
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I understand that the Medals system has to be some sort of challenge and I accept the fact that you lose a huge amount of medals for losing a match at higher divisions...but something must be changed in terms of winning matches. It can't be the same if I beat a manager who is Division 10 and a manager who created his account yesterday. No logic. There must be a difference between each division and between division 1 and division 10 the difference has to be huge! This will also have an impact on the guys who play with accounts showed above because they won't get so much value from cheating, they can't have multi-accounts at divisions 8-9 or 10...
OSM World Champion 2019&2020/WNT Winner 17/18
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Unfortunately, my dream will not come true, for my wife and I to be in the top 3 in the country
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i spent 2 hours but still many messages unread in this topic so sorry if i repeat smbdy
i propose just to somehow mark those who have achieved success in the old points system
as an option: post information about their old rating in the profile of all managers (as you did with the crews, though now I don't see it ...) and add some icon or something like that for those who have the achievement "Top-100", because obviously you will also take it away as a 10k point achievement for the season
It seems to me that this way new players will be able to invest their money in the game and in a few months reach some heights in the game, and old strong managers, instead of playing on 3 competitive slots and 1 farm, will be able to play 4 competitive slots and not worry about their recognition on the world stage
and really hope you fix these new medals somehow, because the top 3 are all banned right now - not sure if this is the best advertisement for new players -
Basically you are going to take away manager points for a more fairer way of ranking you think? Also using 4 accounts will make OSM managers more active and a truer rank? Both assumptions but think I’m right, I can’t see a logical reason for the swap otherwise apart from these two reasons. I don’t expect a reply, hard questions I know. Just ignore me as per, I’m used to it
@SpecialOneThe new way with medals is flawed a lot worse. You will get loads more cheaters and inactive leagues BUT they also don’t have to cheat to get above good managers that play in competitive leagues. This is the main flaw people are bothered about! I’ve read this off a few managers on this post with screen shots and it doesn’t seem to be sinking in. See @Restimat last post
So let’s talk money and BC spends, that’s yours and OSMs language, see how much these new high ranked managers will bring to the table.......
Easy way to get high ranked just pay 200 BCs to set a league up, lock it up, don’t buy/sell and build teams, don’t use TCs, don’t speed timers and BC compensation then it’s very cheap and can win every game and more importantly not losing loads of medals for a loss! You’re getting the reverse effect of trying to get people using 4 accounts and BC spends for ranking with lots of managers in each league.
Result in the long run you will get very high ranked managers that spend little on the game. We all know it’s about the money/BC spends with OSM. Why BC compensation is still on in app battles even if it makes them unfair
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@SpecialOne Hey mate, I agree on that the old MP ranking needed an update and I see that the new medal ranking is perhaps a better setup, because all slots are used for the total. I also understand that the higher you get the more difficult it will be to score medals.
I only think that the majority of managers playing in crews want to have the medals excluded for all official crew events, like battles, CCW, FMS or Crew leagues. Is that possible to implement?You give yourself as an example, but you have to be honest that you or any of your crew mates don't play the same amount of battles other more active crews do. (and playing the crew league isn't too hard for you for a long time, because you always end up at the top
)Another suggestion I have is to implement a bonus for playing against a TC and draw or win without using a TC yourself. A lot of managers in higher divisions are facing managers from lower divisions an get a lot of TCs against, making it very hard to counter all of them. Getting some extra medals for having good results in those matches seems more fair to me.
btw I see that OSM staff is finally cleaning up the top ranking. keep it up!
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i spent 2 hours but still many messages unread in this topic so sorry if i repeat smbdy
i propose just to somehow mark those who have achieved success in the old points system
as an option: post information about their old rating in the profile of all managers (as you did with the crews, though now I don't see it ...) and add some icon or something like that for those who have the achievement "Top-100", because obviously you will also take it away as a 10k point achievement for the season
It seems to me that this way new players will be able to invest their money in the game and in a few months reach some heights in the game, and old strong managers, instead of playing on 3 competitive slots and 1 farm, will be able to play 4 competitive slots and not worry about their recognition on the world stage
and really hope you fix these new medals somehow, because the top 3 are all banned right now - not sure if this is the best advertisement for new players@wenger-wise said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
as an option: post information about their old rating in the profile of all managers (as you did with the crews, though now I don't see it ...) and add some icon or something like that for those who have the achievement "Top-100", because obviously you will also take it away as a 10k point achievement for the season
Maintain an history about rankings on every slot will be something difficult, but final call wasn't taken yet.
Top 100 achievement, will remain, same way as other achievements that were removed already remained on managers profile!and really hope you fix these new medals somehow, because the top 3 are all banned right now - not sure if this is the best advertisement for new players
Everything on OSM (and on all games) is being updated constantly - if we wait for a final version to make it live, you'll never improve anything, because nothing in life is perfect
With this comment I mean that Manager Medals/ranking is a on going project -
@SpecialOne Hey mate, I agree on that the old MP ranking needed an update and I see that the new medal ranking is perhaps a better setup, because all slots are used for the total. I also understand that the higher you get the more difficult it will be to score medals.
I only think that the majority of managers playing in crews want to have the medals excluded for all official crew events, like battles, CCW, FMS or Crew leagues. Is that possible to implement?You give yourself as an example, but you have to be honest that you or any of your crew mates don't play the same amount of battles other more active crews do. (and playing the crew league isn't too hard for you for a long time, because you always end up at the top
)Another suggestion I have is to implement a bonus for playing against a TC and draw or win without using a TC yourself. A lot of managers in higher divisions are facing managers from lower divisions an get a lot of TCs against, making it very hard to counter all of them. Getting some extra medals for having good results in those matches seems more fair to me.
btw I see that OSM staff is finally cleaning up the top ranking. keep it up!
@dennis-s-bergkamp said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
I only think that the majority of managers playing in crews want to have the medals excluded for all official crew events, like battles, CCW, FMS or Crew leagues. Is that possible to implement?
Not really sure if this is the way to go. The only possibility I see here is to add another setting when requesting leagues, so league mods can enable/disable it. It will require also adjustments on signing up, because it will have to be clear that Medals are active or not. On the specific situation of crew battles, it will have to be ALL on or ALL off....
On a personal opinion I think that if we change, we should go for a change on calculation of win/draw/loss medals according with managers division and also end of season medals calculation.
You give yourself as an example, but you have to be honest that you or any of your crew mates don't play the same amount of battles other more active crews do. (and playing the crew league isn't too hard for you for a long time, because you always end up at the top
)Are you saying that "The Force" crew league is an easy league ? How many did you won in the 9 seasons you played there
? And don't forget that I always play with the lowest goal team on crew league
You should play a few more to make me lose 4K (2 * 2K) on every season
In case someone wants to try it, just drop me a line This is the list of League and cup winners and also managers who did the double on the 138 seasons we already played (I know, I know.... I'm abusing my position and advertising my league)
Another suggestion I have is to implement a bonus for playing against a TC and draw or win without using a TC yourself. A lot of managers in higher divisions are facing managers from lower divisions an get a lot of TCs against, making it very hard to counter all of them. Getting some extra medals for having good results in those matches seems more fair to me.
This is something that's already being considered
No promises, but who knows what future will bring btw I see that OSM staff is finally cleaning up the top ranking. keep it up!
Tks! As some of you know, we doesn't punish users without strong evidences and these cases require an access level to info that staff doesn't have, so it's always necessary the help of Gamebasics. This is why punishing these managers take longer than we would like and also why we prefer to work towards discourage this kind of cheating (an on going project) and educate our users!
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." --Winston Churchill
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@dennis-s-bergkamp said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
I only think that the majority of managers playing in crews want to have the medals excluded for all official crew events, like battles, CCW, FMS or Crew leagues. Is that possible to implement?
Not really sure if this is the way to go. The only possibility I see here is to add another setting when requesting leagues, so league mods can enable/disable it. It will require also adjustments on signing up, because it will have to be clear that Medals are active or not. On the specific situation of crew battles, it will have to be ALL on or ALL off....
On a personal opinion I think that if we change, we should go for a change on calculation of win/draw/loss medals according with managers division and also end of season medals calculation.
You give yourself as an example, but you have to be honest that you or any of your crew mates don't play the same amount of battles other more active crews do. (and playing the crew league isn't too hard for you for a long time, because you always end up at the top
)Are you saying that "The Force" crew league is an easy league ? How many did you won in the 9 seasons you played there
? And don't forget that I always play with the lowest goal team on crew league
You should play a few more to make me lose 4K (2 * 2K) on every season
In case someone wants to try it, just drop me a line This is the list of League and cup winners and also managers who did the double on the 138 seasons we already played (I know, I know.... I'm abusing my position and advertising my league)
Another suggestion I have is to implement a bonus for playing against a TC and draw or win without using a TC yourself. A lot of managers in higher divisions are facing managers from lower divisions an get a lot of TCs against, making it very hard to counter all of them. Getting some extra medals for having good results in those matches seems more fair to me.
This is something that's already being considered
No promises, but who knows what future will bring btw I see that OSM staff is finally cleaning up the top ranking. keep it up!
Tks! As some of you know, we doesn't punish users without strong evidences and these cases require an access level to info that staff doesn't have, so it's always necessary the help of Gamebasics. This is why punishing these managers take longer than we would like and also why we prefer to work towards discourage this kind of cheating (an on going project) and educate our users!
@specialone said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
@dennis-s-bergkamp said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
I only think that the majority of managers playing in crews want to have the medals excluded for all official crew events, like battles, CCW, FMS or Crew leagues. Is that possible to implement?
Not really sure if this is the way to go. The only possibility I see here is to add another setting when requesting leagues, so league mods can enable/disable it. It will require also adjustments on signing up, because it will have to be clear that Medals are active or not. On the specific situation of crew battles, it will have to be ALL on or ALL off....
On a personal opinion I think that if we change, we should go for a change on calculation of win/draw/loss medals according with managers division and also end of season medals calculation.
You give yourself as an example, but you have to be honest that you or any of your crew mates don't play the same amount of battles other more active crews do. (and playing the crew league isn't too hard for you for a long time, because you always end up at the top
)Are you saying that "The Force" crew league is an easy league ? How many did you won in the 9 seasons you played there
? And don't forget that I always play with the lowest goal team on crew league
You should play a few more to make me lose 4K (2 * 2K) on every season
In case someone wants to try it, just drop me a line This is the list of League and cup winners and also managers who did the double on the 138 seasons we already played (I know, I know.... I'm abusing my position and advertising my league)
Another suggestion I have is to implement a bonus for playing against a TC and draw or win without using a TC yourself. A lot of managers in higher divisions are facing managers from lower divisions an get a lot of TCs against, making it very hard to counter all of them. Getting some extra medals for having good results in those matches seems more fair to me.
This is something that's already being considered
No promises, but who knows what future will bring btw I see that OSM staff is finally cleaning up the top ranking. keep it up!
Tks! As some of you know, we doesn't punish users without strong evidences and these cases require an access level to info that staff doesn't have, so it's always necessary the help of Gamebasics. This is why punishing these managers take longer than we would like and also why we prefer to work towards discourage this kind of cheating (an on going project) and educate our users!
@SpecialOne il play in one of your crew leagues, long as everything is off in the moderator tools
. See you ignored my comment completely as expected lmao. Give me a date, time and league and count me in -
Its nice to see we are finally getting some answers and explanations. Always nice to see that our "complaints" and suggestions are being at least looked in to and taken into consideration.
Anyway, I would like that all of us focus more on suggestions to improve the medal system in order that we have as much as possible fair system that will award competitiveness and activity. Focusing only on cheaters and focusing only on the fact that we dont like medal system will surelly not help to improve much.
So lets think about it and give some great suggestion, some people already tried to give some awesome feedback and suggestions, and there are some really great ideas here, lets keep it up!
🥉 OSM Nations Cup 2021 - 3rd place (Croatia)
Crew: Proud to be Croat -
@dennis-s-bergkamp said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
I only think that the majority of managers playing in crews want to have the medals excluded for all official crew events, like battles, CCW, FMS or Crew leagues. Is that possible to implement?
Not really sure if this is the way to go. The only possibility I see here is to add another setting when requesting leagues, so league mods can enable/disable it. It will require also adjustments on signing up, because it will have to be clear that Medals are active or not. On the specific situation of crew battles, it will have to be ALL on or ALL off....
On a personal opinion I think that if we change, we should go for a change on calculation of win/draw/loss medals according with managers division and also end of season medals calculation.
You give yourself as an example, but you have to be honest that you or any of your crew mates don't play the same amount of battles other more active crews do. (and playing the crew league isn't too hard for you for a long time, because you always end up at the top
)Are you saying that "The Force" crew league is an easy league ? How many did you won in the 9 seasons you played there
? And don't forget that I always play with the lowest goal team on crew league
You should play a few more to make me lose 4K (2 * 2K) on every season
In case someone wants to try it, just drop me a line This is the list of League and cup winners and also managers who did the double on the 138 seasons we already played (I know, I know.... I'm abusing my position and advertising my league)
Another suggestion I have is to implement a bonus for playing against a TC and draw or win without using a TC yourself. A lot of managers in higher divisions are facing managers from lower divisions an get a lot of TCs against, making it very hard to counter all of them. Getting some extra medals for having good results in those matches seems more fair to me.
This is something that's already being considered
No promises, but who knows what future will bring btw I see that OSM staff is finally cleaning up the top ranking. keep it up!
Tks! As some of you know, we doesn't punish users without strong evidences and these cases require an access level to info that staff doesn't have, so it's always necessary the help of Gamebasics. This is why punishing these managers take longer than we would like and also why we prefer to work towards discourage this kind of cheating (an on going project) and educate our users!
@specialone said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
Not really sure if this is the way to go. The only possibility I see here is to add another setting when requesting leagues, so league mods can enable/disable it. It will require also adjustments on signing up, because it will have to be clear that Medals are active or not. On the specific situation of crew battles, it will have to be ALL on or ALL off....
On a personal opinion I think that if we change, we should go for a change on calculation of win/draw/loss medals according with managers division and also end of season medals calculation.
I would say all off for crew battles, but I appreciate it's being considered.
Are you saying that "The Force" crew league is an easy league ? How many did you won in the 9 seasons you played there
? And don't forget that I always play with the lowest goal team on crew league
You should play a few more to make me lose 4K (2 * 2K) on every season
In case someone wants to try it, just drop me a line This is the list of League and cup winners and also managers who did the double on the 138 seasons we already played (I know, I know.... I'm abusing my position and advertising my league) no, I didn't say it was easy, only you win most of them (like your table shows ) I was close 1 or 2 times, but still suffer from it not winning once 
But always enjoyed playing it!
If I have time and a free slot I will certainly come and play more leagues
See @jeffro-davies already applied for the next oneThis is something that's already being considered
No promises, but who knows what future will bring Let's wait and see then
You can either blame everybody else or you can take a look at yourself and determine where you can improve.
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@specialone said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
Not really sure if this is the way to go. The only possibility I see here is to add another setting when requesting leagues, so league mods can enable/disable it. It will require also adjustments on signing up, because it will have to be clear that Medals are active or not. On the specific situation of crew battles, it will have to be ALL on or ALL off....
On a personal opinion I think that if we change, we should go for a change on calculation of win/draw/loss medals according with managers division and also end of season medals calculation.
I would say all off for crew battles, but I appreciate it's being considered.
Are you saying that "The Force" crew league is an easy league ? How many did you won in the 9 seasons you played there
? And don't forget that I always play with the lowest goal team on crew league
You should play a few more to make me lose 4K (2 * 2K) on every season
In case someone wants to try it, just drop me a line This is the list of League and cup winners and also managers who did the double on the 138 seasons we already played (I know, I know.... I'm abusing my position and advertising my league) no, I didn't say it was easy, only you win most of them (like your table shows ) I was close 1 or 2 times, but still suffer from it not winning once But always enjoyed playing it!
If I have time and a free slot I will certainly come and play more leagues
See @jeffro-davies already applied for the next oneThis is something that's already being considered
No promises, but who knows what future will bring Let's wait and see then
@dennis-s-bergkamp Albino won’t reply to me but I’m sure I could win it given the chance, that’s if it’s fair.
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@dennis-s-bergkamp Albino won’t reply to me but I’m sure I could win it given the chance, that’s if it’s fair.
Force & Friends leagues are always fair. No ST and TC used and no abuse of BC
( but you cannot expect anything else from staff members )I know @woopertje did join once and he couldn't manage it either, Although he had difficulty of having a goal 1.
You can either blame everybody else or you can take a look at yourself and determine where you can improve.
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Force & Friends leagues are always fair. No ST and TC used and no abuse of BC
( but you cannot expect anything else from staff members )I know @woopertje did join once and he couldn't manage it either, Although he had difficulty of having a goal 1.
@dennis-s-bergkamp said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
I know @woopertje did join once and he couldn't manage it either, Although he had difficulty of having a goal 1.
We're playing now the 139th Season, we already had 104 different managers playing on it and only 36 different managers won it
But let's get back on topic, otherwise I'll have to warn/ban myself
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." --Winston Churchill
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@dennis-s-bergkamp said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
I know @woopertje did join once and he couldn't manage it either, Although he had difficulty of having a goal 1.
We're playing now the 139th Season, we already had 104 different managers playing on it and only 36 different managers won it
But let's get back on topic, otherwise I'll have to warn/ban myself
@specialone said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
@dennis-s-bergkamp said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
I know @woopertje did join once and he couldn't manage it either, Although he had difficulty of having a goal 1.
We're playing now the 139th Season, we already had 104 different managers playing on it and only 36 different managers won it
But let's get back on topic, otherwise I'll have to warn/ban myself
Let’s make it 37
I see 5 CPUs in the current one. Sure you could make room for me in the next one. Think this is like the 20th message you have ignored me now over the last few monthsleast you’re talking to others and answering questions which is good. I won’t ask again, il take the hint and won’t talk about it anymore. -
Guys I've come up with a survey, please check it and answer your opinions.
https://forms.gle/zdr9FqoQCTVuQpJE7@vinayak-singh-mehra said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
Guys I've come up with a survey, please check it and answer your opinions.
https://forms.gle/zdr9FqoQCTVuQpJE7You can still use this guys.
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@somrob
Now playing with teams with low objectives means loss of more medals. And most of all, you lose thrice the number of medals (which you get when you win a match) when you lose a match. I agree your pointBoss at Pro Manager Guiders
Be the one who thinks for all, just not for himself! #SaveOSM
