Divisions - Discussion/Questions....
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@specialone So if it is okay to threaten to ban us for playing classic battles because it was against osm rules, but they do not ban those who cheat to rise in the ranking, if you as administrators do not take the corresponding measures you are being complicit in these practices.
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Hello everybody. I have been playing OSM for a few years and I cannot understand how they can simply remove the ranking of management points that has been present in the game for many years. Several coaches have been struggling for years to stay in the top 100 in the world, and thousands more to make it to this great honor.
An important point to highlight is: When were these surveys carried out? I believe that the vast majority of coaches were taken by surprise with this novelty and mainly do not agree with the decision since in the "new ranking", players who play for a few months are able to be in better positions than players with years of focus and commitment. Of course, the OSM must find ways to attract and entertain new users of the game, but as soon as such an important ranking is removed from the game, several coaches will discourage and even give up on the game. I ask the staffs and the entire organization of the game to review their position and understand that retaining their coaches is as important as attracting new coaches.
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@specialone said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
This new ranking is in place for 6 months and I didn't saw a single complaint/suggestion to improve it.... and now that we announce that we'll remove old one, suddenly it's all bad?
Is this a joke ?
No offense at all, but please find below some proofs, suggestions, topics that have been created in order to understand, suggest, correct things looking strange about medals. Even though you told us to wait some time before judging the medals ranking system; let me quote you on September 29th, 2020 after many critics on this same topic:
"Just give it some time and you'll find out that medals will be more balanced and according to the manager level/skills."- This exact topic received many complaints and suggestions, just look back.
- https://forum.onlinesoccermanager.com/topic/59539/medals-rules-and-logic/37
This second topic was created, we raised some serious stakes after months of deep thought but did not get any answers. - Random legit suggestions somewhere else: https://forum.onlinesoccermanager.com/topic/3310/osm-game-features-chatroom-suggestions/1064?page=54 (Hank Strama in November or Vinayak in September)
Personally, I've seen many suggestions on the forums such as reducing 4 counting accounts to 1 or enhancing the calculation system which does not really take the manager division into account whether he's Division 1 or 10, it's mainly about wins/losses.
This is nothing new
As far as I'm aware, there was also a lot of cheating with old ranking, but that didn't ended up in such a fast climb in rankings which make it difficult to spot them, now with 4 slots adding together, it's easier to spot them and they will be caught/punished faster.
Our main goal is not punish users, we aim to 'educate' users and make it harder to cheat. That's why we don't go on chase cheaters via ranking otherwise we wouldn't be doing anything else.
So... my suggestion is:
- Let's work together on solutions to improve this medal ranking instead of just repeat yourselves saying this ranking is a bad idea?
NOTE: If you guys want me to be active providing answers where possible and discuss it with you, you first have to read, give it some thought and think before post!
Secondly, cheaters are NOT the underlying problem. The problem is the --> uncompetitiveness.
This medals system seems to encourage playing against weak managers or even CPU's.
It's such a pity that a game with millions of players brings value and bases its ranking upon playing against CPU's... Weakening crew activity and competitions against other players on its way. Maybe you could explain why it's the case or why it's not.
I'm genuinely curious to understand if we are wrong, deeper explanations are heartily welcomed
Yes the ideal of this new medals system is awesome. About the implementation however, it seems dubious indeed. 6 months ago, you told us to wait a bit so that the ranking stabilizes. Let's see.Until now, I wonder why 4 slots are needed or is the ratio against other managers according to their level well enough calculated because that leads to this question:
- In order to be top ranked on osm, is it better to play individually 4 accounts against CPU's/weak players ?
Or to play high level leagues/crew competitions ?
What do the medals value more according to you/GB: CPU's/weak managers OR highly competitive managers?
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@specialone said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
Looking at the majority of the posts we see in here, all should be fine if we lock the cheaters, is that it?
No
There will never be a perfect system that please all users. There were several reasons for us to look for a different ranking system (gameplay and technical reasons).
Can you give specific reasons for this?
This new ranking is in place for 6 months and I didn't saw a single complaint/suggestion to improve it.... and now that we announce that we'll remove old one, suddenly it's all bad?
Probably because most managers (I mean those who play battle and other big competitions) did not pay attention to this type of ranking
As far as I'm aware, there was also a lot of cheating with old ranking, but that didn't ended up in such a fast climb in rankings which make it difficult to spot them, now with 4 slots adding together, it's easier to spot them and they will be caught/punished faster.
This is true - it's very difficult to get to the top. However, there were a couple of people who made it to the top 100 in this way and who were banned. How long it took them, I don't know. According to the new ranking, they need about 5-6 months.
Our main goal is not punish users, we aim to 'educate' users and make it harder to cheat. That's why we don't go on chase cheaters via ranking otherwise we wouldn't be doing anything else.
I would not agree with this. I think more people will cheat now than before
So... my suggestion is:
- Let's work together on solutions to improve this medal ranking instead of just repeat yourselves saying this ranking is a bad idea?
I agree, we need to discuss that as well
This ranking is a bad idea for several reasons:- (I'm talking about members of the TOP 50 crew) We play battle with extremely good managers and it is difficult to maintain a positive number of medal points. For that reason, amateurs will have an advantage over us who play this longer;
- There are other competitions like CrewCup, FMS, NationCup ... and it is much harder to beat an opponent than in the noob league;
- The only advantage of this ranking are beginners and those who never play against good managers. If they played, they would pass as Barcelona against Bayern
NOTE: If you guys want me to be active providing answers where possible and discuss it with you, you first have to read, give it some thought and think before post!
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@márcio-girilim-santos
Oh god what the hell man! This is too unfair! -
@restimat
True mate! I'm still disturbed with the huge amount of loss of medals when you lose a match. Now it's even boring. -
I think it's funny that I am within the ranking that they say they researched however I did not receive any request or inquiry to participate in the research ... and as I believe that many here
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@xxspeedkill said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
I think it's funny that I am within the ranking that they say they researched however I did not receive any request or inquiry to participate in the research ... and as I believe that many here
I can't remember having received such a survey, although I've been in the TOP 10,000 for a long time
I asked my crewmates, they also can't remember this -
About survey... Just because you didn't got it, don't remember, it doesn't mean we didn't do it.
As you like to state quite often Gamebasics runs a business, so they want their business to succeed and we're not interested on destroy OSM, so every step/change we do requires some studies.
The survey we're referring on the update announcement was made end of November/early December and users had to check announcements on app and click there to access it.
There were 3 questions in there if I'm not mistaken (something like this):
- Do you think Divisions & Medals are a good indicator of the best managers
- What you think we can improve on Medal system
- If we replace Manager points by Medals, what feature you would like to be involved in (and we listed 3/4 things)
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." --Winston Churchill
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@specialone According to you is this system fair ?
You like to give us the word "fair-play" when you have banned the old battles but is it "fair-play" to put at the top of the ranking players who have been playing the game since 2020 and who have 4 slots in leagues closed with only BOTS ?
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So if the objective is the success of the game and given that the most loyal customers of the game are here expressing the same negative opinion regarding this measure, they should think about this question better ... I am certainly not computer science but I believe that from the moment I eliminating the ranking points will create a very negative image among people who have played this game for years and there is no way to recover it ... Do you think that coaches who play for years will like to see their effort eliminated? After investing time and money in the game to be disregarded by the GB or miniclip? This is a shot in the foot ... you want to implement something forcibly against the opinion of your most loyal coaches ... Read the comments
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@ado-hackovic said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
@specialone said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
There will never be a perfect system that please all users. There were several reasons for us to look for a different ranking system (gameplay and technical reasons).
Can you give specific reasons for this?
- Requested by users to have one single ranking and not split in 4 ranking positions, since they are the same user
- Confuse for new users to understand the process and reduce support workload with constant questions why points for ranking doesn't match (users don't search for answers or read, they just ask)
- On the technical side, old ranking system is becoming way too heavy for engines with the increase of number of users (keep in mind that every user have up to 4 entries on MP ranking system)
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As far as I'm aware, there was also a lot of cheating with old ranking, but that didn't ended up in such a fast climb in rankings which make it difficult to spot them, now with 4 slots adding together, it's easier to spot them and they will be caught/punished faster.
This is true - it's very difficult to get to the top. However, there were a couple of people who made it to the top 100 in this way and who were banned. How long it took them, I don't know. According to the new ranking, they need about 5-6 months.
MPs ranking is based on last 6 months, older MPs don't have big influence, so a lot of users reached TOP 100 in 6 months
Our main goal is not punish users, we aim to 'educate' users and make it harder to cheat. That's why we don't go on chase cheaters via ranking otherwise we wouldn't be doing anything else.
I would not agree with this. I think more people will cheat now than before
It will be way more visible than before that they cheat, but number of cheaters won't change a lot, but if we notice changes it will be on the other direction (despite the complaints here, we've locked quite some managers already looking at ranking, we just don't do it on a daily basis)
This ranking is a bad idea for several reasons:
- (I'm talking about members of the TOP 50 crew) We play battle with extremely good managers and it is difficult to maintain a positive number of medal points. For that reason, amateurs will have an advantage over us who play this longer;
- There are other competitions like CrewCup, FMS, NationCup ... and it is much harder to beat an opponent than in the noob league;
- The only advantage of this ranking are beginners and those who never play against good managers. If they played, they would pass as Barcelona against Bayern
Idea of this ranking is that you have a bigger progression when you start and smaller when you're at top.
I'm not saying this is perfect, but it's not as bad as you point (I reached level 10 playing in competitive leagues):- Winning against CPU teams give you less Medals than Humans (on level 10 I get 17 medals vs 120)
- You loose more medals when you draw/lose if you're in higher divisions (if you don't cheat, you also lose against CPUs once in a while, so you'll lose even more medals) - For every defeat I lose almost 2K Medals on Level 10
There's an assumption among you guys that just because you play longer you're a better manager than a new manager? There are a lot of guys that play OSM for several years and still don't understand the game, others don't care... they just play because they like it and because of the friends.... they don't care with rankings.
Every body has the right to chose if he wants to play for ranking, for competitiveness or just for fun... and you can't have everything... On my crew league the lowest Division is 8 and ALL managers that play OSM for more than 5 years!"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts." --Winston Churchill
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In short you are saying that we are not important !!! A long-time customer doesn't matter !! they really need to study consumer behavior and loyalty more ...
most important is a player who enters, plays for 2 months and gives up ...
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There's an assumption among you guys that just because you play longer you're a better manager than a new manager? There are a lot of guys that play OSM for several years and still don't understand the game, others don't care... they just play because they like it and because of the friends.... they don't care with rankings.
In other words ... you want to change the ranking by people who are not interested in the ranking ... and whoever is really interested and demonstrates their vision on this subject does not matter
You are eliminating the identity of the game
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@specialone Thank you for your response. This time you give us a real answer.
@specialone said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
you can't have everything
Until now, the medal ranking did not bother us because we had the option of working for the ranking of coach points. The moment they decide to remove the ranking coach points they remove us the option of choice and force those who want to rise in the ranking to give up competitions, give up to play against opponents who challenge us. And instead of that to start playing in leagues against inactive or inexperienced coaches just for the search of medals. This kind of choose has not longevity...
Why should i keep playing a game that not recognize the time i have spent on the game?
Why does a player play the same game over the years?
For fun? No. Eventually it will tire.
A player needs a strong motivation to keep him stuck to the game.
How a player gets motivation playing a game? Challenging himself. How? Playing against the best coachs. And if he succeeds by being awarded!!!This is so simple!
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@specialone said in Divisions - Discussion/Questions....:
Very interesting and legit answers to Ado, thanks ! (Still waiting for the answer on my post though, but no urge of course
)(I reached level 10 playing in competitive leagues) :
- Winning against CPU teams give you less Medals than Humans (on level 10 I get 17 medals vs 120)
- You loose more medals when you draw/lose if you're in higher divisions (if you don't cheat, you also lose against CPUs once in a while, so you'll lose even more medals) - For every defeat I lose almost 2K Medals on Level 10
There's an assumption among you guys that just because you play longer you're a better manager than a new manager? There are a lot of guys that play OSM for several years and still don't understand the game, others don't care... they just play because they like it and because of the friends.... they don't care with rankings.
On one side, are you saying it's possible to be top ranked (not only level 9 or 10) on osm while playing very competitive leagues ?
Every body has the right to chose if he wants to play for ranking, for competitiveness or just for fun... and you can't have everything... On my crew league the lowest Division is 8 and ALL managers that play OSM for more than 5 years!
And on the other side, you say we cannot have both a high ranking and play competitive ?
Thus do you acknowledge the fact that the medals ranking has LITTLE link with the levels of managers, or am I wrong?"Choose a job you love, and you will never have to work a day in your life." Confucius
"The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is an attribute of the strong." Mahatma Gandhi
"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." MLK -
@specialone Thanks for your answer. Although I disagree, I respect your view of this situation. I think one ranking could have been made for manager points. The slot that has the most mp, put it in the ranking. I even suggested that one ranking be introduced, but someone from OSM Staff replied to me as what will happen to managers who play on one or two slots.
That is also my question -
@SpecialOne Many things need to be improved with Medals, but I need to fokus on one big, and that's -medals for loses with clubs with low objective
If I take club with objective 16, and loss aggainst club with objective 1, I can't lose 1000+ medals, it's fair let's say 50, 60..
if you understand what i meanAnd,
update is your thing, i mean, not for players to work on, but if you put something in the game, it need's to be near perfection, not at the begining
All of this is cirkus, update this, delete that, remove this, remove that -
From the moment that the top 1 of the medal ranking is clearly a person who cheats this is all said about the medal system
